1Y timing with adjustable pulley. New Video!!

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Re: 1Y fitted but sounds 'loose' and clatters?? Video added!!

Postby gaz f » 29 Sep 2011, 05:28

Weldore,
The 1Y is the first part of my swap, I also have the DK gearbox sitting in the garage and the linkages to go with it but I didn't want to put 2 unknowns into the van at the same time if you get my meaning. Get the engine in, sort out any niggles with it first and then when happy do the gearbox.

The reason for doing this swap is actually a hill, a great big long winding one from the next village down from us, this is also the main road and a busy one. I have to climb this hill everyday when getting my daughter from school. My problem with this hill is that my gearing is damned near spot on the worst it could possibly be for it. With the standard box I can accelerate (slowly) up it in third to the point where I am at max revs, foot to the floor BUT I cannot change into 4th as she just can't pull it and it starts to slow down. So for a section of the hill I am stuck at 60kph, revving the hell out of it and holding up the world. :oops: I decided after a fair bit of research on here and using the gearbox calculator on the brickyard that the DK box would be more suited to the hill, still in third but would have a higher, more traffic friendly speed at max revs. My problem with this was would the 1.6 even be able to pull 3rd with a DK box? Solution, the 1.9D. So that is why I'm doing this, nothing to do with power or speed as I'm not that fussed about either. Just that bloody hill. :roll:

So after that long spiel to answer your question...

I notice a quite big difference in the torque, it will pull 3rd or 4th from naff all revs very well on the flat. On my 'nemisis' hill it now accelerates in 3rd faster up it and feels like it's no longer struggling even to pull 3rd gear. I tried shifting into 4th on it and it actually held 4th, didn't accelerate or decelerate for all of 5-10 seconds before it slowly started to bog down. May not sound like much of a difference but I really believe it's promising as the 1.6 if you tried shifting into 4th died instantly as soon as your foot came off the clutch!

I know it's a hell of a lot of work for about 2Kms of road. :run

Edit... I'll do another video. :ok
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Re: 1Y fitted but sounds 'loose' and clatters?? Video added!!

Postby gaz f » 02 Oct 2011, 07:24

I have decided to bite the bullet and buy a dial indicator to set it properly. I'm just waiting for it to be delivered now. I'm also going to have to get a service manual for the car it came out of, or one that deals with this engine and how to do it properly as I'm getting conflicting results when searching the net on what it should be set at and how it's actually done.

The problem is I have the pump with the vernier?? pulley fitted for adjustment(pulley has 3 bolts in elongated slots so it can move forward or back). The pump body does not move at all !!! I tried slackening the 3 bolts behind the pulley and the one at the rear of the pump as Ringo suggested but the pump doesn't move. So I had a trial and error adjustment setting moving the pump by tiny amounts and have it sounding pretty good but this means when the crank and camshaft are set to TDC the pump locking pin hole no longer lines up perfectly.

The other thing that is confusing me because of this is how the hell would you lock it all in position for changing the belt again? As because it's using the pulley to adjust the pump the locking pin hole no longer lines up properly when the pump timing is set.

I need to know what service manual to get, the engine came out of a 1996 Seat Inca van... and I can't find a manual for it! :roll:
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Re: 1Y fitted but sounds 'loose' and clatters?? Video added!!

Postby gaz f » 02 Oct 2011, 07:39

I found this picture that I took when I first got the engine, it explains what I'm on about in my previous post!

This shows where the position of the pump was with the original timing belt with the cam and crank set at TDC. Also you can see that it's the pulley that is used to adjust the pump.

Also note that you couldn't get a locking pin in there to change the belt with the cam and crank at TDC!!

Image
Photo0005 by gazfy, on Flickr
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Re: 1Y fitted but sounds 'loose' and clatters?? Video added!!

Postby camper » 02 Oct 2011, 09:44

I dont think thats right the pump sprocket bolts should be tight.Adjustment is done by undoing the bolts behind the sprocket .The 1y engine in my van has a bosch injection pump.I was able to move the pump body after the bolts behind the sprocket where loosen and the one at the rear.The fuel pipes to the pump when tight will stop the pump body moving.If you slacken off the lock nuts from the pipes to the pump then the pump will move.Find the right position on the sprocket to tighten the bolts then put the locking pin in .Then you can use the dial gauge to time the pump.
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Re: 1Y fitted but sounds 'loose' and clatters?? Video added!!

Postby peteabbott » 02 Oct 2011, 17:12

The three bolts are fine, same as mine. There is lots on here re timing but if this helps.............
No.1 piston TDC as seen through the bell housing after removal of plastic screwed in plug.(good idea to mark the bottom pulley when you have found TDC)

Now the camshaft, you will see at the far end of the shaft (cover removed) an off centred slot. You will note that No.1 cylinder cam lobes will both be in the upper position (both valves closed) If they aren,t then rotate engine one turn.

You are now at TDC and on the right stroke. Now you can "lock the camshaft" using a nicely fitting flat bar in the slot taking up the slack either side with some suitable packing between the bar and the rocker box. OK so far ?

Now where is your TDC mark ? In the right place I hope then your TDC and Camshaft are in the correct place and you are not a tooth or 2 out. This needs to be correct before you go any further.

I am assuming that your timing is not that far out and you can check your timing without removing the belt, if you were starting from scratch or fitting a new belt you would need to lock TDC and the Injection pump pulleys. On we go then.

Insert your brand new DTI and remove the cam lock. Now turn the engine backwards (spanner on bottom pulley) and observe the DTI you will see that the needle slowly goes down then stops moving ... note the "stop moving position" OR zero the guage. Now bring the engine up to TDC where you should have a reading of 0.96 to 0.98mm on your guage. If you do not have 0.96mm then that is where the three slotted holes come in but if it is that far out you may need to move your belt on the sprocket but as she starts and runs I don,t think you will need to. Slacken the three bolts and the backplate that the pump pulley is bolted to will move independantly to the pulley and at TDC move the backplate to get your 0.96/0.98mm reading . Slacken, adjust, tighten and check until you achieve....
TDC check
Camshaft position check
0.96/0.98mm on your guage check.
Spanner over a couple of times and check and recheck. VROOM VROOM
Hope this helps and to all the spanner boys on here please feel free to add or correct anything Oh and don,t forget health and safety, wear thick gloves, hard hat, goggles, ear defenders and wellington boots and all will be OK. Good luck.
Pete Abbott
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Re: 1Y fitted but sounds 'loose' and clatters?? Video added!!

Postby gaz f » 03 Oct 2011, 07:12

Thanks guys.

camper. This is where the confusion comes from as although mine is a bosch pump too there appears to be 2 different versions when it comes to the adjustment of them. The one where you move the pump body, and the one like mine where the pump doesn't move but as pete says the pulley slackens to rotate the pump behind it.

pete. Thanks for the step by step. I had found a post by you before on another thread explaining how to do it with the adjustable pulley but I found that by continuing to search too much you end up with lots of different ideas and settings etc.. and you end up confusing yourself!

I had a play with it a couple of days ago which made me decide to buy the dial indicator as there is no way to get it set right with this adjustable pulley unless you get very lucky. The adjustments needed are so small and make big differences to the engine! Here is a rough set of adjustments I made and what it did.

1. Everything at TDC (crank,cam and pump set so the locking pin could be fitted). White smoke on start up, lots of white smoke! Gets a little better as it warms up. Engine sounds quite good but vibrates. White smoke when you rev it when warm.

2. Crank/Cam at TDC with pump set so half the hole is covered (almost like in the picture above) . A small amount of black smoke on start up when cold, engine sounding clattery, quietens a bit as it warms but still a bit too clattery. When warm no smoke at idle but a fair bit of black smoke when you rev it.

3. Crank/Cam at TDC with pump now turned back from 2nd attempt by about 2mm. Not bad, a small amount of white smoke on start up when cold. Clears with a small blip of the throttle. Sounds quite good when warm, revs ok. Black smoke but not as much as attempt 2 when you rev it.

This was the point I decided I needed the dial indicator as if your being picky (and I am!) you are never going to get it right by continually tweaking it... unless you really know diesels, and I don't.

:ok
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Re: 1Y fitted but sounds 'loose' and clatters?? Video added!!

Postby ringo » 03 Oct 2011, 07:51

Well i've read it and re-read it and i cant see where anyone has said you shouldnt loosen the bolts behind the pulley and adjust the timing that way. Pete may have said it, but i dont think so?

Have you tried undoing the bolts behind the pulley and moving the pump?

Seems madness to me to have to loosen the pulley itself... But i can see how it looks that way.

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Re: 1Y fitted but sounds 'loose' and clatters?? Video added!!

Postby gaz f » 03 Oct 2011, 14:51

Ringo, after you suggested it originally I did try loosening the bolts behind the pulley and the bolt at the rear of the pump. The pump doesn't move I'm afraid. Even trying to pull or push it with quite a bit of force it doesn't move at all.

That was the point when I started searching and found a couple of threads on here and the 'yard about pumps that use the pulley for adjustment. Maybe it's because it was out of a Seat Inca and VAG thought they would have a laugh with the Spaniards. :idea

I don't know. I wish it was a 'normal' one and I could adjust the pump itself. It would make life a lot easier.
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Re: 1Y fitted but sounds 'loose' and clatters?? Video added!!

Postby ringo » 03 Oct 2011, 15:28

Hey ho - thats a bummer.

Have you got the piece of kit that you screw into the pump that allows you to use the DTI gauge? Like this: http://www.brickwerks.co.uk/shop?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=738&category_id=95

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Re: 1Y fitted but sounds 'loose' and clatters?? Video added!!

Postby camper » 03 Oct 2011, 16:59

I carnt move the pump unless the fuel pipes are slackened off then it will turn.
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Re: 1Y fitted but sounds 'loose' and clatters?? Video added!!

Postby peteabbott » 03 Oct 2011, 17:53

Why would they have three slotted holes on the pulley if it was not for adjustment ? The main centre bolt is not touched. The three setscrews on the pulley are threaded into the pump drive/backplate with no nuts behind the pulley. Mine is the same (came out of a Caddy) and no way can you move the pump.......no play in the fixing bolt holes and no slots where on the old KY 1.7 engine you could actually move the pump for adjustment. I didn,t have the proper fitting that screwed into the pump for my DTI as it was a bog standard engineers DTI, I just clamped the DTI post to somewhere solid. You are only interested in measuring the movement in the pump so as long as your DTI is not flopping about it will do the job. Keep with it, you are nearly there and just 1mm either way did actually make a difference. I think there was mention on here about someone timing a diesel by ear ! Searched all the books but I can,t find a special tool called EAR. Been a very good camping year and now getting withdrawal symptoms with the winter coming on. Roll on Christmas.
Pete Abbott
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Re: 1Y fitted but sounds 'loose' and clatters?? Video added!!

Postby gaz f » 04 Oct 2011, 06:22

Ringo.
Yes I have the adapter, or I will have when it gets here. It was a public holiday here yesterday so I'm hoping it will turn up today or tomorrow. The kit I bought is a VAG kit and has the DTI, IDI adapter, TDI adapter, a pump locking pin and although I already have one, another camshaft locking bar. Not bad for 50 Euros with a 3 year guarantee!

Camper, just as pete says there is no elongated holes through the mounting bracket between the bolts behind the pulley and the pump. It's just a straight bolt on job, no adjustment possible.

All, I take it to insert the DTI I have to remove the small sensor that is in the middle of my pump? All threads talk about removing a blanking plate in the middle of the pump between the fuel pipes but mine has a sensor there that isn't connected to anything anymore (I think it was a sensor for the automatic cold start).
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Re: 1Y fitted but sounds 'loose' and clatters?? Video added!!

Postby ringo » 04 Oct 2011, 07:55

peteabbott wrote: I think there was mention on here about someone timing a diesel by ear ! Searched all the books but I can,t find a special tool called EAR.


Thats because they dont sell them any more. Its an old engineers / mechanics tool thats often overlooked nowadays :)

With that setup there is no chance of adjusting it while its running - so an EAR wouldnt be as effective i suspect. DTI is the way.....

50 euros is a bargain for all that - reckon my DTI cost just that...

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Re: 1Y fitted but sounds 'loose' and clatters?? Video added!!

Postby peteabbott » 04 Oct 2011, 17:18

Your dead right there Ringo. My special EAR tool got blocked with age and overuse. Used it a lot with the old petrol engines that had points. Should never have sold my Vauxhal Cresta :?
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Re: 1Y fitted but sounds 'loose' and clatters?? Video added!!

Postby gaz f » 06 Oct 2011, 06:18

Sorted. 8)

The DTI and adapters arrived yesterday so I got stuck in.

As per my last post, even though it was now sounding not too bad and not too smokey it was quite a bit off. I checked it, didn't believe it so turned the engine by hand a couple of turns and rechecked it thinking it couldn't possibly be that far off. Same result. 1.27 :shock: So I adjusted it, this made me realise it doesn't have to move very far to make a huge difference to the figure.

Checked.. 0.99, turned the engine again then rechecked.. 0.99, adjusted, checked, turned, rechecked. This went on for a while. :rofl

Finally got it sitting at 0.97mm. Fired it up and quite frankly what an amazing difference! It sounds sweet now, no clacking, now smoother and also after taking it for a run it has more power/torque.

I'll make a video of it today so you can see and hear the difference compared to the original video.

For anyone who comes across this thread in the future who has the same kind of issues, get the DTI and set it properly. I'll change the title later too so it's easier for anyone else who gets a 1Y with the adjustable pulley type of pump.

:ok
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